Pondering Christ in Hebrews

Well, g'day and welcome to Ponder.

We're having a conversation about the Word of the Lord as it was preached to us on Sunday, and as we encounter it in our everyday lives. Now, my name is Jack, and my Ponderers, joining me today are Jono and Ben. How are you guys going?

Good, well, Ben, good to be here.

That's good, that's good.

So today we're breaking down the sermon that Jono preached on Sunday about Christ in Hebrews. I thought it was an awesome, I knew coming into it, that we're going to getting a sermon on Hebrews, it's going to be good.

And I felt it was, and I was very blessed with that. And I'm sure many of our listeners will be too. Jono, you want to give us a quick breakdown of what the sermon was about?

0:53
Sermon Recap

Yeah, sure.

I mean, it is a huge privilege to get back into Hebrews and try to do an overview of the whole book. In some ways, I sort of feel a bit embarrassed about that sermon because it's not technically a great message in a way.

But I intentionally, for the sake of our series, tried to approach it in a way that was allowing this sort of cascade of truth to come over a person as they hear it, so that they would be struck by the answer to the question, is he worthy or unworthy

of all the praise and all the glory of the universe? Now, that bounced out of last week, Ben preached a great message on the resurrection and finished with the famous, I didn't know it, but it is famous, the debate between John Lennox and Richard

Dawkins, Christian mathematician versus atheist. Dawkins has this quote that we used as a video clip, where he says, John Lennox, he makes good arguments about a deistic idea that there is an architect of the universe or that fiddles with the knobs

once it's all there. But then he says, then we have the resurrection and it's so petty. He has this great line where he says, it's unworthy of the universe.

It makes you do a little vomit in your mouth as a Christian, because it's like, wow, that's so not the truth. So that was where we came from. I bounced out of that video and that was the driving thesis question, is he worthy or is he unworthy?

And so, I just came up with 22 homemade titles, coming straight from the text of Hebrews about who Jesus is and then asked the question of, is he worthy or unworthy? Yeah.

I mean, and they're great homemade titles. I wrote a little list of them here.

I don't know if I got all of them, but God Speaker, Universe Maker, Radiance Representer, Sin Purifier, Cosmic Commander, Humanity Shareer, Atonement Provider, Chain Breaker, Temptation Rescuer, Faith Builder, Weakness Empathizer, Invitation Sender,

Gate Opener, Conscience Cleanser, Sin Purifier, Hope Retainer, Saint Surrounder, Race Perfecter, Cross Embracer, Shame Taker, Heart Protector. It's so good. Yeah. I don't think you need to be ashamed of that, or embarrassed about that sermon.

I mean, I remember in Bible College, we were doing the preaching class once, and it was on, in this case, it was on Old Testament narrative, and they were talking about the problem of preaching the Old Testament, is that you got these long chunks of

text for sort of one point. And I remember my teacher saying, never be afraid to just read scripture to people and say, this is God's word, let it speak. And I think that's what she did, and I thought it was absolutely awesome.

Thanks, mate. I've been doing this for over 30 years, and I still feel a sense of inadequacy. So it's good to be encouraged.

4:15
What does it mean for Jesus to be the Word?

So let's talk about some of the content.

I want to introduce our listeners to a term that we use in Bible nerd area, which is this idea of Christology, which I guess you would define as the theology of Jesus or and His role.

And it generally exists on a spectrum of low Christology, where you're really emphasizing Jesus' humanity, and then high Christology, where you're emphasizing His divinity.

And I think what you seem to be really getting at is the high Christology of Hebrews, where He is worthy of all creation, and Hebrews really raises Him up. And so I wanted to sort of pop the hood a little bit on the theology of that.

And especially looking at this idea of God's speaker, that Jesus might be God Himself speaking to us.

This is a tricky question, but could you give us a little bit of an overview of what it means to be Jesus as God's speaker, as the Son, almost sort of a Trinitarian summary of how Jesus acts as the Word?

Yeah, I think the main place I would go to is John 1, the idea of Logos, which I've always been sort of struck, fascinated, blown away by the idea of Christ being the creative utterance.

That this idea of Logos in the Greek idea of Logos is very much ontological, I think. It's just this origin idea, the Logos, starts everything. And so, it's very important to remember the Trinity.

So, as Protestant Christians, we believe in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I mean, Catholics do as well. But they're all equal, and all of the same essence, all God.

So, it's a Trinitarian show. I guess that's what I would say, that we often don't recognize. And that goes back to Genesis 1.

So, the John 1 and Genesis 1 are so linked as in the beginning, in the beginning. And something often you can miss is the Trinity is there in Genesis 1.

There's God the Father, and He spoke, and that's the Son, and the Spirit hovered over the chaotic waters. And so, all the way through the Bible, there have been roles for the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.

And I think this is just a way of highlighting Trinitarian truth. Yeah, He's full of oomph, as I said, in His identity, in contrast to what Richard Dawkins says, because He is part of and equal to God in the Trinity.

Yeah, I guess you could say He is the connection point between this vastness of God and the locality of humanity in a particular time and place and in a physical thing. Like as you're saying, the person of the sun connects the two.

Yeah, that's well said. Yeah. I mean, T.

Bruce says the exact representation of the radiance of his glory. Like it's, and I can't remember where else it talks about that sort of language in the New Testament, but there is, I'm sure there's maybe Colossians.

Yeah.

But that he exactly represents God the Father, which is, it's just, I made the point in the sermon, I think at night that there's a real aspect of his otherness and his divinity that is completely, I mean, in the theological speak, ineffable.

Like it's beyond our comprehension, the eternality of the sun and how he could be squished into a human body. It's full on stuff. Sort of pops your screws out of your brain a bit.

Yeah.

It's a mystery.

Yes.

In the words of Paul. Yeah.

8:54
What about people who never hear about Jesus?

I want to talk a little bit about this locality before we moved on, because this was again, one of the objections that Dawkins raises.

And, you know, I think we all felt that when so many of us feel that when he says the localness, the earth boundness, a lot of us are like, yeah, that's what we celebrate about it.

But I guess I could see a place of objection coming from the fact that it is located, but because it's located in a very specific place and time, it seems unfair to the people that aren't in that place and time. So let me explain.

What about the rest of the humanity that aren't living in the Roman Empire or the, you know, first century Judea? They're going to miss out on the Gospel until, you know, for hundreds of years.

You know, be someone living in Japan or China that are completely disconnected from these events that are, it affects them and affects a cosmic scale. I guess there's an objection to be raised there that, is it fair for it to be local?

My answer for me personally comes back to a message we did in Numbers in this series, which was talking about the importance of story.

And I think the idea of God walking in the garden, which is what they call an anthropomorphism, it's not really, God didn't have a face, he's not six foot tall, but he decides to express that, this idea of walking with Adam and Eve, because in his

story, he wants to say, I am relational, I am love, I'm the author of relationship, and that's what I want with my people. It's intimate, and so therefore local. It's right up close and personal, walking together.

And so then that's, I guess, extrapolated throughout the whole Bible, this sort of relational God wanting an intimate connection. The covenants of Genesis, they're just very intimate. They're not cosmic global type looking things.

They're up close and personal. And I think that's just the way God designed it, that it's relational and local, intimate. And somehow in his wisdom, he wanted the story to be retold.

And so there's this idea from the very beginning of humanity, stewarding creation and stewarding the message, I think, stewarding the character of God to the world.

And certainly that's what the people of God, Israel were always meant to be a light to the nations, to bring clarity about the self-revelation of God through them to the world.

And so I think the, you know, here I am, send me, like that's a big part of what life is, that we are called to be witnesses. You shall be my witnesses. Why?

What does he need to witness? Put, you know, just communicate it to the world, once and for all. But he likes doing it in a relational setting and it engages the spirit.

I don't know, I think he just has this dream of humanity working with him. Coworkers with God. And that's the answer.

Just the with God life, the spirit working through us, body of Christ stuff. What do you reckon, Ben?

Yeah, I think Hebrews 1 holds those things together where it says that the Son is the exact representation of the being of the Father, the fullest revelation of God in a man.

But then it also says in verse 1 that God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways. And it's this idea that God speaks in creation. Psalm 19 says, The heavens declare the glory of God.

And so God is communicating through the cosmos, is communicating through his people Israel, and is communicating through his son.

And so you, Jack, you brought up people in, you know, we often talk about the Amazon rainforest or China or Japan, people who have never heard or seen anything about Jesus. God is still communicating through the cosmos.

My understanding of Romans 1, God says that his eternal power and divine nature are visible in creation itself. And so something about God is known.

But the point of Hebrews 1 is to say that the fullness of God is brought down into the person of Jesus, who is the fullest communication of the message of God's salvation for us. And so we're held accountable to what we can know about God.

We who have the Scriptures, who do walk with God, are held accountable to our faith in Jesus then.

And it's the... the sort of essence of the whole canon of the Old and New Testament, that there are these authors that have had a connection with God and have expressed the truth that has been revealed to them through their personality.

Yeah, right.

So, the... You know, I think the... the Bible itself has some of that local...

you know, vibe that you're talking about.

14:42
How do our conscience and the Holy Spirit relate?

I want to move on now to a couple of the...

a little bit later in the sermon, you talked about this idea of conscience, which is something we don't often think about. And that the way that conscience can convict us, but it can also affirm us. Is there an overlap or is...

Oh, sort of, I guess, what's the relationship between conscience and the Holy Spirit? Because sort of, I know when I think, I think, okay, I think of the Holy Spirit as also having a role in convicting me of sin and also have a role of affirming me.

Do you think there's a relationship to be had there or are they interchangeable or what do you think?

I don't think they're interchangeable. The reason that I made that comment is that there's not a lot said, I don't think, about conscience in the New Testament. Like, it's a lot more about the Spirit.

I love... Years ago I heard someone say, when you're witnessing, sharing the Gospel with someone, the person's flesh or their will is outnumbered.

There's the truth of the Word, there's the truth of the Spirit, and there's the truth of the conscience. So, it's sort of ganged up three against one, a rebellious will.

So, I think they're different and I think they work together, as in spirit and conscience.

And then there's the incredible picture in Romans 8 that once someone does believe in Jesus, their conscience flips and co-testifies that we are children of God.

Romans 2 is the classic one that says, what about those people at the Amazon rainforest? And it says, some of their conscience will testify against them and some for them.

Which, no one's getting saved without Jesus, but it's just, if anyone's looking for, what does the Bible say about those that have never heard the special revelation of the gospel? It's Romans 2, that's where the Bible talks about.

There's a great quote from Martin Luther and he's very dramatic.

He's on trial at the Diet of Worms and he says, unless I am convinced by scripture or by plain reason, my conscience is captive to the word of God and to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Which is good.

Yeah, I think kind of picking up on some of what you guys are saying. It's great. It's very, it's one of those really inspiring quotes.

17:17
How does justification and sanctification affect our conscience?

It does link to something that's a whole other discussion, but really an important discussion.

The idea of justification, sanctification and righteousness. And it's like, by faith in Christ, we were justified, we're made right with God. We're clothed in righteousness.

But without holiness, without an sense of obedience and sanctification is often called the progressive conformity to the will of God. Without that, which connects to a clean conscience, there's something that's missing.

If we know we're captive to sin, though declared righteous, but not walking in sanctification, the sanctification, which is a gift of righteousness and justification.

I'm not making a lot of sense, but the idea of conscience is a key link between justification and sanctification. Because we know we're sanctified. I am made holy, washed clean, the body washer, the sin purifier, the atonement maker.

But when my conscience testifies against me, it's sort of beginning of Romans 8 stuff, the spirit and the flesh, it's sort of the flesh is, the flesh gets a louder voice. We were never more righteous because we did a whole bunch of good things.

But it's, it can be debilitating. I think the conscience is really worth hanging out in and thinking about.

19:05
What's the difference between shame and conviction?

I wanted to ask a little bit about this idea of a guilty conscience.

And I guess the idea between shame versus conviction, because I think a lot of us in the Christian journey have had the sensation where we've sinned, full and short in some way. I know I'm forgiven, but I keep carrying this guilt around with me.

And I personally think one of Satan's favorite tricks is to tempt you into sinning and then make you feel bad about it afterwards.

How do we deal with, I guess, yeah, how do we deal with conviction versus carrying around guilt unnecessarily when we've actually been freed from it?

We preach the gospel. Paul says in Romans 8.1 that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

And so if we are searching the scriptures and repentant before the Lord, then we can stand firmly on the truth that we are not condemned by God and the Holy Spirit.

Even when we can't understand it fully, the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are God's children and we're not perfect. We won't be perfect until He comes again. But we are welcomed into the arms of the Father.

And then the evil one, not the Spirit, the evil one does a similar work of highlighting sin, but in order to say that we would never be accepted by the Father. And so it's an opposite effect.

The Spirit says, yes, you've fallen short, but you are forgiven and loved by the Father. And the evil one says, you have fallen short, you are unloved by the Father. And that's a lie.

If we are truly walking before the Lord in repentance and trusting in what Jesus did on the cross, then there is no condemnation and we are a child of God. It's also helpful, I think, to hear the gospel from a brother or sister.

There's this Dietrich Bonhoeffer quote that gets paraphrased as something like, the words of Christ are truer on the lips of my brother than in my own lips.

Yeah.

That's why James says, confess your sins that you may be healed. There's an important place for honesty with other brothers and sisters in Christ, who can then say God forgives you. Not I forgive you.

The brother or sister is not in a place to forgive you before God, but God has forgiven you.

Hearing that from another human is, I think, a helpful and important way that God has given us to deal with the shame that we carry from sin, to hear from the lips of another human being, God has forgiven you for that.

The Spirit is testifying with your spirit that you're God's child.

Yeah, I think, too, I haven't thought about this a lot, but I wonder if there's a difference between feeling guilt from sin and being sick from sin.

I know as a parent, like, you could be really cross with your child, like a little kid who's doing the wrong thing, and they're guilty, and you bring judgment. And then you find out they have a condition. There's a sickness.

There's something that is very powerfully chaining them in a way to behavior that's just unhelpful. I'm sure God sees the effects of sin in some way like that, because He understands perfect mercy comes from perfect knowledge.

And so there's a level of, getting back to your question, what do people do with conviction and guilt? I think, yeah, you've got a true repentance comes from a genuine conviction.

But if you've got yourself stuck in an addictive scenario pattern, there's a sickness there that's not just sin. It is sinful. You could put the Christian language on it like the flesh and all that.

But I think, in a way, talking to someone pasturally, it's like, yeah, there is guilt, but that guilt's been taken. But what God really cares about too, is the prodigal son who needs to come home to get well.

So I think there's something important to realize about being sick with sin. And that God is merciful, loving, wise. And so, pasturally, I want to say to someone, it's actually unhelpful to just keep on hanging around the guilt part.

What's important to say is, I do feel guilty and I feel ashamed, but that's not going to help me get better. I need to come clean with God, like the 12-step program, and say, I actually can't fix this myself.

I've got to come to a loving God who, he's not saying, you naughty boy again, you're coming.

He's saying, okay, let's work on accessing the power of the gospel, accessing the mercy of God, and using the authority of the name of Jesus to literally break that chain of addiction. And the Hebrew says, the chains of the constant fear of death.

I wonder if that's a little bit of fear of judgment as well. You know, that's been set free, Romans 8.1. I don't have to be, you know, overwhelmed by fear of judgment, but I want to get well.

And how good that he is the weakness empathizer.

Yeah, we looked at that.

Christ himself suffered when he is tempted, so he is able to deal gently with those who are being tempted, because he knows what it's like.

Not that he sinned, but that he knows what we walk through. And he gives us grace in the midst of that.

And that's, like, when you've experienced something yourself and you come across somebody and they're going through the same thing, and they make a poor choice. When you have suffered yourself and you have, and have empathy, it's really different.

They know it. They're like, I feel safe with you. You're not condoning something that's sinful, but you're appreciating the human condition.

And that doesn't have to be a get out of jail free card. It's just the reality. It's like, yeah, the human condition is broken and sick with sin.

And if you do this style of look over the whole Bible, it's just everywhere. It's everywhere. Enoch walked with God and he was no more.

Joseph was pretty good, but there's no one sinless apart from Jesus. And so, yeah, I feel like that might sound like a cop-out for the holiness guys and all that, but I think that is the response.

If you're not feeling any conviction, you need to work on finding a fear of God and an appreciation of the holiness of God and the ramifications of sin, a fear of sin too.

And then, come to your father in heaven through the body, as Ben said, through others, and say, I need help. And that's what I was saying in the message. How you do that is an important step involving skill.

26:55
How to ask Jesus to break chains

And it's, you know, moving on to other aspects, I suppose, the power of the request. Yeah, just that that's the way the kingdom works. We ask for stuff.

Ask and it will be given. You know, if you're stuck feeling convicted, feeling shamed, although it's like, well, at some point, you got to ask, because Jesus is already asking you, what would you like me to do for you?

What would you like me to do for you? And, you know, we often talk about Dallas Willard, he used to say, you're not going to get free from sin until you get to the point where you want to be free from sin.

You have to align your will, that vision intention means. It's like, I've got sort of a vision coming out of my guilty conscience. I'd like to be better and avoid certain sin.

But you got to have the intention. And that is like, my desire is, please set me free. Give me a holy heart and a passion for you.

That's worthy of your name. And then the spirit goes, okay, well, let's work on some means. Vision, something worth doing.

Intention, align my will to it. And then go, how am I going to do it? What means?

I think on that means thing, Psalm 119 says, I've hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you.

We need to be cultivating the habit of immersing our mind in our conscience in scripture, in order that God would give us that hatred of sin that would turn us to his love. Because apart from that, we actually want to sin.

We don't want to sin, but then we want to sin. And so we don't end up killing the sin that we need to. But hiding the word of God in our heart is a way of renewing our conscience and taking away the searing of our conscience that can happen.

In order that we don't want to turn to sin anymore because we realize how much better God's way is. And that's, I think, a key part of the means of righteousness and the means of walking with Jesus.

Yeah, that's awesome.

29:00
How do we not get weary and losing heart?

Let's move on to sort of the end of the passage. And we talked about Jesus as the Heart Protector. And that's drawing on this passage in Hebrews 12 verse 3.

Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. Jono, you especially talked about losing heart because we can lose heart. I want to talk about that bit, though, of growing weary.

Because it's obviously connected. But, I mean, I certainly feel, and I'm sure others feel, that a sense of, it can be tiring to be constantly pushing up, pushing against our sin, pushing against our flesh.

The Christian journey is, as you said, a marathon, not a sprint. It can get weary. And I know elsewhere in the New Testament, it tells us not to grow weary.

Paul says not to grow weary of doing good. What do you think are some practices that can keep us from growing weary, that can sort of refresh us and keep us going for the journey?

Oh, I think there's a lot of soul health, soul care practices like solitude, silence, rest, and whatever puts joy back in your own soul, in your own heart, which might be music worship or exercise, or you know, there's a lot of things you can do.

But when you were saying that the idea of weary and losing heart, I don't know of another passage more poignant about that than 2 Corinthians chapter 1. I always just go to that because it would seem like Paul is saying, I was so worn out.

I had lost heart so badly that I feared of like life itself. Like I, and it looks like he's saying, I was ready to end my life. I was so weary.

But it also says, so getting to your point, what practical thing can you do? He said, but the comfort I received from God, I was given so I could comfort others.

And I think that that's one practical way, if you're really struggling, to keep your eyes out for others who are struggling. And in community, appreciate the human condition, it's tough, but look up and find hope in God.

That's the 2nd Corinthians, chapter 1 idea that they found, I can't remember exactly what it says in that chapter, but the idea that flows through 2nd Corinthians is, you know, the clay jar with glory in it, and in his weakness we find, in our

weakness we find his grace. So I think that's part of it, just the acknowledgement when someone's losing heart to say, hey, it's really normal to lose heart. And I just want to encourage you, keep going. I've been there and I go back there.

We do lose heart, but yeah, hiding God's Word in your heart, speaking the language of heart, I think, is an important thing to actually, in the same way, how do you break chains through the name of Jesus?

I've always found with spiritual warfare, we pray the power of the blood of Christ and the power of the empty tomb. And we use our words because words create universes. Words are so important.

And so we need to learn how to use our words to protect our heart. And I don't say that in a super simplistic way or a silly way, because I know losing heart is massive. But we can ask God in prayer, specifically, Lord Jesus, protect my heart.

I'm losing it. I'm losing heart. I'm losing faith.

And that's where, like Ben said before, and Jerry Bridges famously said it, you got to preach the gospel to yourself. I think out of all of that, that I'm saying, that would be the main encouragement.

You have to get really good at preaching the gospel to yourself. Because the gospel builds faith and hope. And the other place to hang out is Romans 5, 1-5.

If you're losing heart, because it's just like one of the other main passages that just says, you know what? Life's going to have suffering, and it's going to produce perseverance, and then character, and then hope.

That's the good news that Jesus says in Matthew 11, come to me, you who are weary and burdened, and I'll give you rest. The other pastoral note I would add is to ask yourself if you're carrying a burden that you're not meant to be carrying.

In my life, at different times where I've felt like I've come to, or I have come to the end of myself, it's been a revelation to spend some time in Matthew 11, 28 to 30, and to realize that Jesus doesn't lay a heavy burden.

His yoke is easy and His burden is light, and He's the one who promises us rest. And when you realize that, you think, oh, I'm trying to carry something I'm not meant to carry. I'm trying to carry the world on my shoulders.

I'm trying to do something, trying to work too hard.

Yeah, that's so good.

Realizing that I can let that go and let God be God, let Him carry my burden, and in its place, I get the peace and the comfort of walking with Jesus, because His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

Amen.

And it's the incredibly important skill to learn to hand over outcomes to God, which is a Dallas Willard idea. Whatever you're doing, hand over the outcomes to God and going along with the passage you just quoted from Matthew 11 is the 23rd Psalm.

For those who are losing heart, it's just a beautiful bunch of truth. The Lord is my shepherd. I lack nothing.

He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside quiet waters. He refreshes my soul.

And then in the midst of the dark valley, He protects me, He comforts me and prepares a table in the midst of my enemies. And then it says, my cup overflows.

And so you can quote scripture, which is exactly what Ben was saying, hiding God's Word in your heart, and then using the power of request to say, Lord, would you overflow my cup with a knowledge of your presence?

I think one of the big challenges is just getting the taste of sin out of your mouth. Because if you love fatty food, it's hard to eat the vegetables. And I'm not just talking about, often you might think it's sexual sin, but it's anything.

It's pride of life. It's something that you've allowed to become an idol. And it's just the taste is in your mouth.

It's like an appetite. Bitterness will do it to you. Jealousy, jealousy, it's just there, like a bitter root.

You got to get rid of that. Get rid of that. And so there's some Philippian stuff to hang out in, I reckon.

It's like whatever's pure, noble, admirable. Think about these things, Romans 12, one to three. Renew your mind.

There's got to be a bunch of truth that's put in there and allow the spirit to renew. Yeah, John 14, John 15, the hanging out with the spirit and abiding and that there be fruit that grows. Yeah, it's a spiritual endeavor.

I think that's a really important aspect of what we're talking about.

37:45
Who are your heroes of the faith?

I wanted to finish thinking about what I think is one of my personal favorite passages in all of scripture, which is actually you didn't quote it in the sermon, but just before one of the readings you wrote, the author of Hebrews goes down this list

of faithful people through the Old Testament, then he ends with, Therefore, since we're surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses. One of my favorite passages, so good.

And so I wondered if we could finish by me asking you, what is a saint story that's inspired you? We talked about Jesus as the saint surrounder.

And whether they be someone in your life or someone from the Bible or from history, what's a saint story that just warms your heart?

I love the story of William Wilberforce. He was one of the key voices in the abolition of slavery in the UK. I love that he faced what seemed like an absolutely insurmountable issue.

But he held the Bible in one hand and said, this does not support slavery. And he saw the culture of the UK, of the British Empire at the time.

And through perseverance and through a lot of prayer and hard work and a lot of people over the course of his entire lifetime, just before he died, I believe, he saw the abolition of slavery.

And so that's an encouragement to me of the culture change that can come from faithfully reading scripture and then persevering to be obedient to God's call on your life.

Yeah, I mean, there are so many amazing stories. I haven't done a lot of Alpha courses. I've done maybe four or five in my life.

But when I hear the story of Nicky Gumbel at the beginning and John Wimber praying for him and having a word of knowledge, a prophecy over his life that he would be used by God in an enormous way.

Yeah, I find the saints who step out in really small, insignificant, local, as you say, local ways. And then God just breathes on it and takes it and does something macro with it. I find that quite inspiring.

And I always think of Mary, mother of Jesus, with that, that she just gets told this incredible stuff. And it just says, she stored it up in her heart. And she just believed that something good would happen.

What would you say, Jack?

I mean, for me, if I can go a little bit more local, for me, it's my dad.

I like, I get inspired by just his, I mean, he's still alive. So I suppose there's still time for him to muck it up if he wants, but I just get inspired by how gentle and kind and sort of unwavering in his commitment to loving others and loving God.

That's something that has like always been inspiring. It's something to me like, I want to be like that.

Well done, Jamie.

Yeah, we have all these heroes of the faith through thousands of years of church history, and they do incredible things.

But then you look at their stories, you read the stories of the saints, and they suffered and they were persecuted, and they were martyred and torn apart.

It's encouraging for those who were weary, like we spoke about before, that the author of Hebrews ends chapter 11 by saying, the heroes of the faith were torn apart by lions, and they lived in caves.

And then it says, the world was not worthy of them.

It's an interesting way for us to finish this message in Hebrews, that we're called to a life that is radically following the crucified and risen Messiah, and that the world is not worthy of us because we're destined for a new creation and a new

Yeah, kind of an ironic twist, given that we started this with Dawkins thinking that Jesus was not worthy of the world.

Kind of twisting that.

The world is not worthy of the saints.

Yeah.

Of their Messiah.

All right.

Cool.

I think that's as good a place as any to end. Thank you all for listening. Thank you guys for coming on the pod, and we will chat to you next week.